Jeep Creep November 2006

Send the Jeep Creep an Email

Greetings from the Palouse. The frost is on the Pumpkin here on the Palouse and we 'er all aim'n to live to Thanksgiving. What a wonderful holiday for Americans, where we can give our Creator thanks for our blessings. As an ol LDS Hymn says: "Count Your Blessings, Name One by One, and you'll be surprised what the Lord hath done." Now that I'm unemployed I have to constantly sit down and remember that hymn, especially as finances tighten. I've been on the Palouse for four years scrapping for a job with all the other unemployed IT geeks. It's been a hard scrabble adventure and the Jeep's sat waiting till the bills get paid and the band account has been fattened. But now, this month it's time to kill the fatted turkey and enjoy a good meal, hearth, home and kith.

As I read the Emails that come in, I find most of you are in the same boat. You may be working, but you're not going to waste your money on things that you can do yourself. Good for you! My ol' pappy used to tell me: "Son, green things grow and ripe things rot." It was his way of telling me to always learn and grow and progress. I've tried to learn that lesson, take it to heart and multiply it to everyone I know.

I'm kind of a jack of all trades and a master of none. I can take your Jeep apart and put it back together blindfolded, I can engineer, fix, update computers, write software, debug it, and do web stuff and build houses. I can drop your automatic transmission in the drive way and have it torn apart, repaired and reinstalled over a weekend. I'm illiterate in several European languages and even more computer languages. I've got technical and college degrees till the cows come home.

Are you getting tired of reading this? Well, you should be because though I've accomplished a few things in my life, it don't mean a whit if you can't impart it to anyone. And, the fact is that the above is starting to sound like I'm a little full of myself. When you read that, you turn off and say.. "Wowsers... this guys full of (you fill in the word here..). I gotta get out of here." and then leave to find someone you can talk to, who listens, and talks back.

Yep, sometimes I get a little full of myself and I've found that when that happens that there's little things in life (besides the wife and kids) that come along an jerk me back to reality. Two things happened this last month that did just that.

The first was a quite a shock. Take a look at the following photograph:

Do you notice something different about this Jeep CJ dash? It has a Check Carb lamp. I've NEVER seen one of those before. Eddie Oh from 4X4 Xplor supplied the photo in a link a Jeeps Unlimited Forum. I was astounded. I'd just replied that I'd never seen such a lamp. Wowsers, did I end up with egg on my face! Some Jeep expert I am! Pfhhht... there goes any reputation I ever had. I had to get out my OEM parts lists and look at them again, in greater detail.

Guess what I found?

I found that Eddie Oh was right! What a shock!

Click on the parts sheet.. and you'll see that there were more than one lamp option available in the 1981 to 1986 CJ's. I learned something very valuable to me. I've fuel injected my 1983 CJ7 and I use a simple flashing lamp to as a "Service Engine Soon" (SES) lamp. It's low tech, and low bucks, but it works. This lamp would be a wonderful addition to my dash. I'd love to have one of those "Emissions Check" lamps.

The second wake up came when Brent (mbalbritton ) a member of ORC's JeepSWB noticed another thread on the Pirates Forum, and posted a link to see a Sno Ball CJ6 that was made for the United States Forest Service. This was a CJ6 mounted on treads. It could drive in deep snow without bogging down. From my research I found that it was about the only one left in the world, and sitting in a Sales lot only 25 miles from my home. I had to see it and traveled up there on a Saturday. The lot was not open, so I took a picture through the chain link fence (sorry!) of this unique survivor of Jeep history.

It was thrilling to see this Sno Ball. I can only imagine riding it up in the Blues, Bitter Roots or the Cascades. Take a look at the undercarriage of this CJ6. Have you ever seen anything as wonderful as this? It looks to me like these treads, drivers and idlers were made with mostly off the shelf parts. If anyone out there were really handy, they could reproduce this piece of history.

When I was young I owned a BMW R27 with a Stieb side car. I had a 1930 German Army adaptor for the rear wheel what would convert it to a early snowmobile. It took about 10 minutes to swap the wheel for the tread and install skis on the remaining motorcycle and sidecar wheel. Then I'd take it up into the Cascades for a little snow fun. It was a thrill.

If that was fun.. this Sno Ball would be a ball of fun. I would love to buy it and install my Power Wagon's plow on it. Then I could have some real fun plowing the drive way, the parking area, heck.. .the whole little town here on the Palouse! I'd PRAY for snow.

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

Well, it's enough of the unusual, so it's on to this month's Jeep Mail Bag.

Send the Jeep Creep an Email

LEVE Note: I get a whole Jeep load of SPAM and virus loaded Emails each month. So I filter all my Emails. Remember when you send in your questions DO NOT CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE. If you change the message line

• Your message will be deleted.
• The message will never be read.
• It will be marked as Junk-Mail.
• Anytime in the future if you send in a question it will be trashed.

I'd sure like to avoid all that unpleasantness. If your Email makes it into the column, I won't correct your grammar or spelling ..I can barely correct my own!

As I've said so many times before, I read each Email I receive, but I can not answer them all. I try. So, may I suggest you join a Jeep oriented forum on the Internet? There are many out there in cyberspace. I keep links to about seven in my favorites folder and one as my home page.. guess which one! Yep, it's ORC's Short Wheel Base Jeep Forum.

So may I suggest you join in a forum? Try starting here: Off-Road.com Main Forum Page

I have a 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee 135,000 miles I guess this mile things doesn't work and have changed the crank sensor, coil, distributor cap, plugs through several different mechanic shops.  My brother seems to think it is a sensor problem.  This is what it does. It ran fine and then one day it just stopped - towed it to Motorworks and they changed crank sensor.  Then months later it happened again, but I could start it and drive for like a couple of miles and then it would stop again - shop changed the coil then a couple of days later it stopped again. 

My brother found that a bare wire around the coil
and felt this wire was grounding everything out and wrapped it. 

Now it stops when it feels like it.  Has the coil gone bad again due to the bare wire? You could be going 20 miles an hour or 60 miles and hour.  It will just stop on a rainy day, cold day or hot day.  Then you wait a minute and it will start right back up and you can drive it.  I do have a tendency to run it low on gas, but the last few times it stopped I had a 1/2 tank of gas in the car per the meter.  Sometimes I have to get out raise the hood and then jiggle the taped wires by the coil and it will start, but it won't shut off while you are jiggling the wires - that's why my brother feels it is some type of sensor and not the taped wires.  I called the jeep dealer and they said no its the fuel pump, but if it was the fuel pump would I still be able to start the car and drive away?  Did the bare wire destroy the distributor cap and the new plugs and the new coil?

On other sites I saw where folks said they changed the MAP, MAF - MAS?? sensor and then TPS and IAC sensors.  My brother disconnected the MAP sensor and it actually idled much better so we definitely know something is wrong with that sensor so we are going to replace all those things and hopefully that will help, but if that doesn't work - I'm running out of cash to fix it.

Have any suggestions.

Thanks - Linda

Hi Linda,

The problem you describe is a bugger to fix.  Yes, the fuel pump can cause the problem.  You've got to now narrow down the problem to one of two systems, the fuel delivery and the ignition system.

If the CPS goes bad, there will be no fuel pump or spark when you're trying to start the Jeep.  The computer does not see the pulses from the CPS sensor and shuts down these two circuits.

If you do have spark during the start mode, then it's likely the fuel pump.

What I do is to carry some starting fluid (you can get some at Wal*Mart in a spray can.).  Then when the Jeep dies, you can jump out and remove the air filter and spray some of the stating fluid into the throttle body, past the throttle plate.  Don't spray too much.  Then try to start the engine.  If it starts, then you've got spark and the engine is running off the starting fluid.  If it does not start, then it's likely you don't have spark.

If you don't have spark, check to see if the fuel pump is working (you can check voltage, the ASD relay, etc..).  If the fuel pump is working, then the CPS is working and the problem is in the ignition system

This will narrow it down quite quickly.

If your brother is hands on with this Jeep... I'll be glad to work with him to determine the problem.

LEVE

thanks so much I'll share the information with him.

Leve - another thing my brother heard about in another jeep was there is a wire in the steering column that sometimes goes bad and will cause the car to keep shutting off - we'll try that as well.  Have you heard of that?

The car does re start with no problem - after you go under the hood and jiggle the wires, but sometimes it will start just as soon as it stopped.

I'll email you tomorrow and let you know what happens - thanks so much for your help.

Hi Linda,

There has been problems with the ignition switches on some model Jeeps. Usually the problem is tied to women using large key rings loaded to the gills with lots of heavy keys, fobs, pictures of the family and a kitchen sink.  The weight swinging around on the key ring will wear out the ignition switch.  This part is one of the first things lots of mechanics/owners will replace because it seems to make sense.  The problem is that it is a fairly robust part.  And, it requires some adjustment when installed.   We haven't even talked about getting to it, it really opens a can of worms.  In this case, I'd stay away from it till you prove the CPS and the Fuel Pump are good.

Tell me more about jiggling the wires, and which ones.  The CPS sensor wiring harness has been know to lay fairly near the exhaust.  Then the wires burn and ground.  It can be maddening.  Check out the wiring harness from the CPS up to the main harness loom.  This is something that the shops you've visited should have checked.

LEVE

Hey Leve - the jeep is running beautifully hasn't shut off yet.  All my brother changed was that IAC and it is going great.  He didn't get a chance to change the TPS and we get the MAF sensor today so he will change those items this weekend.  He did say that when he tried to push the old IAC in it wouldn't go he said that it was extended all the way out.  Not sure what that means, but I'm sure you know.  I'm calling Chrysler service back today to give them an earful since they refused to believe that just changing the IAC was going to fix my problem.  I've also notice a much better gas mileage.  Before if I filled my car to a 1/2 tank ($10) it would be gone by the time I went to work to the barn to ride my horse and home.  I was putting at least 10 dollars a day in my tank and the miles traveled daily were around 60/70 miles.  I put a 1/2 tank in tuesday and it is a little below 1/2 tank and I have been driving more than 60 miles.

Thanks a bunch for you help.

Hi Linda,

I'm glad you got it working, however... but... perhaps.. your job isn't done.

The IAC will usually make the engine have a high idle.  It opens up more air to the engine and the fuel management system will attempt to pour more fuel into the engine to maintain the 14:7 ratio.  It likely did put the MPG in the toilet, however it normally won't kill the engine deader'n a doornail.

May I suggest you hold off on the communications with Chrysler until you're darned sure the problem is solved.  I think you've got two problems and that will require two fixes.  At this point you've only got one fixed.  Let's give it about a 6 weeks of great running, nostalling/stopping/dying on the side of the road.

Trust me on this one, I hope I'm wrong.

LEVE

okay Leve - you jinxed me - I left work yesterday went to the grocery store was driving out of the grocery store lot and the car popped and died.  Now it won't start.  It will turn over and turn over like it wants to start, but will not start.  Which is the same problem I had before changing the IAC. It will turn over and crank, but it just won't start.  My brother is going to tow it back to the house today and change the maf and tps sensor since we do know they are bad, but the Crank sensor was changed when I first brought it about a year ago.  When that went the car would not turn over at all.  My other brother just changed the fuel pump on his car, but he said when the fuel pump went you just could not start the car at all no crank.

Any suggestions.  I'm assuming when you say the CPS that is the crank sensor that I replaced about a year ago.  Do they go bad within a year?  Also my brother is going to check the wiring harness to the CPS to make sure that they are not resting near the muffler as you suggested below.  Hopefully that's it.  It's just really strange how it will run for days and then stop and then when he goes to drive it - it will start right up.  He's starting to think that I am doing something to the vehicle to make it stop.  Quite maddening.  A girl I ride with is going through the same thing with her Jetta and her car has been sitting for 2 weeks now because they have changed everything on it coil, distributor, distributor cap and her dad is just through with it.

Hi Linda,

A jinx, me... little ol' me?

When a fuel pump dies, it usually makes noise before it dies.  The owner never notices because the noise comes on gradually.  It doesn't die all at once.  It can cause stalling, and no-start conditions and drive an owner or a shop buggy.  Remember there are really two items on a Jeep that can partially fail and not throw a code, and that's the CPS sensor, and the fuel pump.

Let's hope the part causing the problem is completely dead.  That's a good thing, it makes the problem easier to find.  Do what I suggest in the last Email with the starting fluid.  You're a bit of a disadvantage since you don't have diagnostic equipment.  That just means you'll have to do the job the old fashioned way and logic it out.  That's not hard... ya got me on your side.

Don't throw away money on the MAF or TPS, just yet.  Let's concentrate on the problem... no start.  When you start shot-gunning a problem by throwing parts at it you can introduce problems and can be knee deep in muck before you can say jack-sprat.  So, let's take a deep breath, step back from the Jeep, open the hood, get a chair, and sit down and stare at it.  As you do, think about the problem.  Here's what I think:

It cranks, but it won't fire off and won't run with out running the starting motor.

What's it missing:

•     Timing

•     Spark

•     Fuel

•     Air

If you spray in the starting fluid and it runs, you know you've got air, timing and spark. If it doesn't run you know you've got air, and fuel and question spark and timing.

If you pull a spark plug and see if it sparks when you try to start the engine, and it sparks... you know it's got spark.

That narrows it down to fuel, because the spark and fuel is controlled by the CPS sensor pules.

Check for voltage on the positive side of the coil.  If it 's there the ASD is NOT shutting down and there is voltage provided to the fuel pump and the ignition.  You should have spark.

Then the problem would lay in the fuel circuit.  The route is from the coil (supplying the voltage) to the fuel pump relay, to the fuel pump.  So, check the fuel pump relay to see if it is engaging and turning on fuel to the pump.

Then check the wiring harness back to the tank and see of the fuel pump is getting voltage.

Then, and only then will you have a handle on the problem

The MAF and TPS, like the IAC are great little sensors to trim fuel, but normally they don't prevent a car from starting, nor kill the engine.  They don't even come into the equation until the engine goes into Closed Loop.  When you start the engine it goes into Open Loop, that's like a choke on a carb.  Then the engine warms up and it goes into Closed Loop and the computer starts to trim the fuel ratio.  That's like the choke being turned off.

So, at this point your brother is barkin' up the wrong tree.

Can a CPS go bad in a year?  Yes, it can, and often does go bad.  But before we condemn that part, lets check to see if it's working by checking for spark.

If your brother follows the steps I've outlined you should be able to find out the problem within an hour, or so, of working.

Let me know what happens.

LEVE

okay I'll have him check, is the fuel pump relay in that little black box to the left front of the car?  I started pulling those fuses out and putting them back in when it went capoots on me on monday in desperation.  I'm sure I couldn't have done any damage to them because then the car would have never started and I wouldn't have been able to drive at all.

I'll chat with you tomorrow and let you know what happens.

My brother is driving around in the jeep now and it has not shut off yet.  He has the starter fluid and screwdriver just in case.  He said it started right up this morning, but he said that he was getting ready to check the asd and the fuel pump relay, but noticed that the black box that encases the fuses was so hot that he could barely touch it to open it and he said that this was only within 15 minutes of driving it.  He said should that box get hot at all?

Hi Linda,

No, it should not be too hot to the touch.

You could pull the fuses, and relays and look at each one of them for corrosion on the contacts.  It seems that something may be pulling too much current.  I don't think I'd do that just yet. I still think this, though a problem, may be secondary.  Lets see what happens when it dies... and it will die.  So, let's chase that problem first.  Always
chase one problem at a time!

It could even be a problem in the fuel pump dying, and as it dies, it pulls a lot of current, causing that box to heat up.

You're my eyes, ears and hands here... so get as much information as you can.

LEVE

he's still driving strong and has been driving for the last hour so he said he's waiting for it to shutdown again and he's hoping it will.  He said that even the cruise control box is getting hot and that shouldn't he said it just seems like everything under the hood is getting hotter than it should. 

Thanks for all your help I'll email you tomorrow.

Hi Linda,

Humm... What's your brothers name so I can use it instead of typing "your Brother"?  Keep driving... it will happen again!  I'm wondering of there is an additional problem with underhood heat, or if the problem is electrical heating from over current use.

LEVE

His name is Dennis and he said he's going home he's been driving it for about an hour now.  He said that it is running at 210 whatever that means and he said that each car is suppose to run at a certain temperature.  He's pretty good at figuring things out because he's did most of the work on my BMW and he buys and refixes older cars and sells them, but is pretty stumped on this one.  He said that hopefully it will stop with me this weekend and we can try the things that you suggested below. Hopefully he said it will just conk out for good and we won't have to go crazy trying to figure this out or keeping buggin you.

Thanks

Hey Linda,

I forgot, the temp that the Jeep's running at seems OK to me.  Fuel injection requires a 195 degree thermostat.  That means the engine heats to about 205 to 210 degrees as a constant running temperature.

LEVE

he told me that just as he was pulling in the driveway it went to die out on him, but he didn't then he said something said check the distributor cap and rotor and he said that he found a bunch of black stuff in the cap like you would fine when it is misfiring. He then asked when was the last time I had a tune up and I said about a year ago when I asked him to do it, but all I had changed were the plugs and the oil.  He then asked had I had anything changed after the ignition coil was repaired and I said no.  So he's off to by a rotor and distributor cap.

You know how us ladies are we kind of forget some things.
:-)

Hi Linda,

When he gets back have Dennis check the little button inside the distributor cap.  It should be spring loaded and be able to be easily pushed in.  If it's not... then that's a problem.   I doubt this is a problem.  A dirty rotor/distributor cap will normally cause missing and crossfire of the the engine at varied speeds.  It won't often cause the engine to shut off like it's been turned off with the ignition key.

Have Dennis pay attention to when the Jeep decelerates to see if it's attempting to die.  That could be a problem introduced when he worked on the IAC if it never happened before... keep an eye on it.

LEVE

The saga continues - I drove the car all day on saturday and sunday and it was fine.  But of course monday it died on the way home from work.  We did the starter fluid and it worked - the car started right up.  It stopped yesterday and we did the starter fluid and it wouldn't, but Dennis then jiggled some wires towards the back of the engine and it started.  But he kept jiggling the wires once it was started to see if it would shut off and it wouldn't do it.  Also yesterday we put in a new distributor - probably a waste of money, but at least everything is almost new on it.

Right now he is on the way to the Jeep dealer that is local in our area.  They deal with alot of the farmer vehicles as well so they are used to seeing and fixing everything from 1988's to now.  They are going to look at it for free.  The Jeep dealer did say that the fuel pumps on these models do work intermittently, but they don't think it is the fuel pump.  I'll keep you posted as to what they think. I still think that the Crank Sensor that was put in a year ago went bad, but we'll see.  Hopefully the car will die once he gets there.

Talk to you soon. :-)

Hi Linda,

It's a crap-shoot as to which it is.  The wiggling of the wires point to the CPS sensor.  When it starts up, does it take a while to start?  More that about 5 revolutions of the engine would point to the CPS.

LEVE

Nope doesn't take awhile it starts right up, but wiggling the wires does not always work.  Because I tried the same thing on monday and it didn't work for me and it didn't work for my brother so that is why he used the starter fluid.

Unfortunately I can't get rid of the jeep for another year so I'm going to try everything I can.  My brother said that if its the fuel pump that is very easy to do because he looked at it yesterday and he has change the fuel pump on a couple of other vehicles.  Not so sure he will be able to do the crank sensor, because I hear it is in an awkard spot.

UPDATE - jeep died again last night when I left work.  Of course i had been driving it all day and it was fine.  So I towed it to another place.  I asked them to please check the fuel pump.  Of course after it came off the tow truck I was trying to get it started for about 10 or 15 minutes.  Jiggled every wire in site and it still didn't start and then I took it out of gear and went through all my gears slowly with the break on and then I put it back into drive and it started right up.  The funny thing is that I noticed that lately when it stalls out with me it is in 2nd gear when it stalls.  I have to manually shift because the trans is not the best and I get a better start in 2nd and then I shift into drive.  The transmission place taught me that so that I can preserve it for a few more months until I can purchase something new. Could that have something to do with it?  I've noticed that sometimes when I try to go into 2nd to start the gear will stick a bit, but I'm not the best with keeping my car clean.  I did the same thing with my BMW - I throw change in the center console and quarters kept falling into where the gear shift is and we had a bunch of change stuck in there so sometimes we had to dig the change out before I could shift.  I noticed that there is a bunch of change down into that area, but I doubt that could make any difference in whether it runs or not, but I'm sure that is why sometimes I can't get it into gear.

Hi Linda,

Shifting the transmission can cause problems if the neutral-safety switch is bad.  That would kill the starter motor, and it wouldn't even spin the engine.  All you'd get is a clicking...and no starter motor movement at all.  There is a chance that the movement of the shift lever is causing something under the Jeep to move, like wiring.  That remains an unknown.

I'm assuming that while at the shop the they didn't spray any starting fluid into the throttle body to confirm spark and lack of fuel.  Has the fuel pump relay been replaced?

LEVE

Dennis said the same thing you did about that neutral-safety switch.  He also questioned that fuel pump relay but from what the manual said he wasn't really sure where it was.

Hi Linda,

The Fuel Pump, or it's energizing circuit could be the problem if the engine dies and still has spark.  Before I'd jump in and swap out the pump, I'd reconfirm the fact that starting fluid does the trick.  Then I'd swap out the fuel pump relay, and then the pump.  The pump is part of the sender assembly in the fuel tank.  It's not hard to swap out, but it's best to siphon out the fuel first so that you're not dealing with a heavy fuel tank.

The CPS is in a very awkward place.  It's up on the transmission and hard to get to.. you've got to be a contortionist to get to it.

Larry

Where is the fuel pump relay - Dennis already swapped the fuses because I purchased a new fuse.  Is it in that black box or is the fuel pump relay somewhere else.

Also where I towed it to said they can't find what's wrong with it and told me that it has been running - I was like duh!!! Drive it on the highway and then watch it break down.  They said they don't do that. Like give me a break.

Hi Linda,

Look under the hood by the battery, if I recall correctly, the relay is in that black box, and it's location is marked under the lid.  It sure seems to be the fuel pump, but until the spark is re-confirmed, I'm not sure.

LEVE

That's what we swapped out - I purchase a new auto shutdown fuse and then Dennis swamped them around the day it stomped, but who knows maybe the fuse was no good that I purchased.

Hi Linda,

Was that a FUSE or a RELAY?  They're different.  A relay can be flaky, a fuse in about 99.999% of the time either good, or bad.

LEVE

it was a relay a square black piece with prongs on it.  I confused the two. The fuses I know come in an array of colors, orange and green and they are marked by a number on the top like 20 or 60 and they are very tiny.

Well since the mechanic told us to come get it we will try what you said.  Run it until it stops and then do the spray test to reconfirm fuel.  One time it worked with the starter fluid, but the other day it didn't work so that is why Dennis is confused.

Thanks for your help.

Hi Linda,

"One time it worked with the starter fluid, but the other day it didn't work"

Don't let that confuse you.  That's a HUGE clue!  Dennis may have found a nugget, tell him well done.  If starting fluid does not work ALL the time, then it points to the CPS being bad and shutting down the ignition.  Remember the CPS must be working for the Ignition AND the Fuel Pump to work.  If either Spark or Fuel are present, the CPS is
working.  If the Fuel Pump is bad, then the spark would still be there and the engine would run off the starting fluid.  That's why it's so important to check for spark, and it's an easy test to-boot!

LEVE

I'll call the folks that put the first one and see if I can take it back there for them to check since I'm sure this is something that Dennis can't due.

Hi Linda,

Humm... another thought.  At this point we're really checking if the CPS working.

IF the CPS IS working and an ignition part is failing, the fuel pump would still pump fuel into the cylinders when you try to start the engine.   The lack of spark, due to a failing ignition part would kill the spark.  This is a case of divide and conquer.   By isolating the problem to either the fuel or ignition systems, you'll be far ahead in fixing the Jeep.

Another little item to check is the plugs.  If the CPS is working, and the fuel pump is working, and the ignition is not working, then the plugs will be wet with raw fuel.  Wowers, you almost need a logic table for this! So, let's do one:

Simply pull a spark plug and observe for fuel.  If it's wet with fuel, dry it off, reinstall the plug and re-test.  Then pull it out again and see if its wet with fuel.  If it is, the fuel pump is likely working and the problem is isolated to ignition parts, like the coil, etc..

LEVE

The mechanic just called and said that the crank sensor is ancient and is melted.  So they are saying that is the problem.

I thought with a crank sensor it either works or doesn't work.  Help

Hi Linda,

The CPS may/may not work.  It can be flaky, and iffy, and well just pain goofy.  That's why it's important to see what happens exactly when the problem is showing up.  The sensor can be goofy enough not to fire an error code, and still be flaky enough to shut down the engine.  It's a paradox that Chrysler never addressed, just like never firing an error code for low fuel pressure.

But, if the CPS was replaced a year ago, then why did it look so danged bad?  But yes, the CPS can be the problem.  That's why we were going to check for wet plugs, spark, and fuel pump nose, to confirm the CPS or rule out the CPS.

If the sensor is melted, then yes, it should be replaced.  Let me know what you find/see.

LEVE

Hi Linda,

Wowsers!  Another rip off?  That just stinkin' sucks swamp water and makes me darned angry.  It looks like you'll get the Jeep back running and find an honest shop in the same breath.

Let me know how it turns out.

LEVE

LEVE Note: What can you do when you're up against someting like this? You can take the first shop to court. That's a good option when the second shop is willing to testify. If not, then perhaps the Better Business Breau is your best bet. As Linda found in the first part of this series of Email, things aren't always what they seem to be. Before you get angry and fire off that letter, calm down, think and confirm the problem has truly been repaired.

OK, I have an interesting problem that I cannot seem to get resolved. I have a 2005 Jeep Wrangler sport 100% stock. The problem I have is a very strong (propane) like smell or natural gas even inside the jeep. I purchased it new 4 months ago (The jeep was caught in a dealer buy out which prevented it from being sold in 2005). It has 2500 miles on it but has this almost toxic smell in the cab. I took it to the dealer and of course they don't want to take time to troubleshoot smells under warranty. But they say they do not know where to start to look for the problem. If your driving it is subtle, but when you get out and get back in, it is almost lethal. Has anyone heard of this problem. I love my Jeep and don't want to go the "Lemon Law" route.

Sincerely,

Johnnyg

Hi JohnnyG,

It's almost, kind-of-sort-of, bet your bottom dollar a problem with the catalytic converter. My guess it that it's working less than 100%, and you get the smell. Short Wheel Based Jeeps, like CJ and YJ have all had owners who complain about exhaust smells. I'd not be surprised if the TJ were any different over it's manufacturing life cycle. Air flow with a Jeep is such that the air can come up and around the Jeep and be sucked into the cabin. If the convert isn't working well, it will give a faint odor of propane and rotten eggs (sulfur).

That's where I'd focus the hunt. Also, I'd start raising hell with the district manager for Jeep about the dealer blowing you off. Jeep doesn't take too kindly to that treatment of customers. It takes a whole lot of advertising to draw in a customer, and only one or two misplaced words from a service employee to drive them away. When they're driven away... they tell all their friends. That's a huge loss of a customer base.

LEVE

That's what I thought as well, however when I stuck my nose around the tail pipe, I couldn't smell anything. It only seems to accumulate inside the jeep. You get a hint of it if you lift the hood, but not as strong as inside. So I don't know.

John

Hi John,

That doesn't surprise me. The odor is coming off the converter, not from inside it and forced out the tailpipe. The odor then wafts up into the cabin, and some collects in the engine bay. From what you've told me, the converter seems to be the culprit

LEVE

Thought I would get back to you with the result. Turns out there is a MFG date time frame where certain Dana differentials use a chemical additive to preserve the fluid running through the differential. As this chemical heats up it produces a smell that smells like propane. The service manager said he had to contact a field tech for jeep who had heard of a few of these cases and told him to change out both differentials fluid. The guy was right on, once the fluid was changed the smell went away. So, should you get another question this will help another Jeep owner.

Funny thing, sold my '05 right after I got it back and purchased the new 4 door unlimited.

Thanks for all your help,

John

LEVE Note: You can't win 'em all! See, we learn something every day. I wouldn't have thought the LSD additive would have smelt like propane when it got hot, but what the heck do I know?

I have recently aquired a 76 fsj wagoneer. After getting it running with a new fuel pump + other stuff, it seems the tranfer case is in neutral. I can shift the trans and feel it shifting gears but no movement. When I go to put it into part the pawl grinds to a stop as if the tranfer case is in neutral. On this model there is no selector for the t-case. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Russ,

Here's a silly question, but did you engage the "Emergency Drive" switch in the glove compartment?

LEVE

Yes and the vacume lines were rotton and I had to replace most of them. There are three vacume ports of of the vacume canister on the firewall and I was only able to locate 2 line and had to plug the other port. The other thing is the vacume lines do not seem to function right.

Hi Russ,

Which is the exact problem. The vacuum is probably not being applied to shift the 4WD. Let me nose around a bit and see if I can come up with a vacuum diagram. That may help. I'm off to church in about 45 minutes, then family stuff will take up most of the day. It won't be till later tonight that I can jump on the problem.

LEVE

I got it~!!!!!!

The lever for the 4x4 was in neutral.

I almost hate to say that. I couldnt find it as it is a small paddle under the seat, looked like a seat adjuster. Just gave that a tap and off we go. I appreciate all of your help.

LEVE Note: Remember the KISS principle? When ever you do work on a vehicle cut the project up into small achievable jobs. When you do this, you won't get lost. Remember, if you 've not found a problem in 15 minutes of trying, then you're barkin' up the wrong tree.

I have a '99 TJ 2.5L somewhere around 68000 miles the transmission started acting up. It wont shift up into 3rd gear unless I allow the RPM's to drop well over a 1000 RPM after shifting from 2nd gear, if I don't do this it grinds terribly, and it is impossible to downshift into third. Also it wont go into first while it is moving at all. Right now I'm in Iraq so when I get back I'll have plenty of money to fix the problem whatever it is. Is this going to mean me replacing my ax-5 if so then good ridence. Any info on this would be wonderful.

Thank you,
Brian
Balad AB, Iraq

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your service to the USA, and helping keep LEVE and my family
free. Come home safe!

Here is a quote from the Factory Service Manual. "Hard shifting is usually caused by a low lubricant level, improper, or contaminated lubricants. The consequence of using non-recommended lubricants is noise, excessive wear, internal bind, and hard shifting. Substantial lubricant leaks can result in gear, shift rail, synchro, and bearing damage."

My guess is that the synchros are toast, for what ever reason. It is time to tear down the transmission and do at least a cursory look, if not a full blown rebuild. The AX5 has never been my favorite transmission, but it's adequate behind the 2.5L engine.

LEVE

Leve,

If I do end up tearing into the transmission I will probably just end up replacing it. I'm not sure with what transmission but if I get the bellhousing from a 2.5l Dodge Dakota it will mount to my engine and the transmission end bolts straight to the AX-15 which means I can but pretty much any transmission that advance adapters can provide adapters for. The fact that I take it out on some hard wheeling trips makes me want to replace it more and when I get back from the states I will be lifting it 4", the stock stance with 31" tires is just not quite enough for me out there on the rocks although it does perform quite well and in some cases it has performed better than lifted jeeps with lockers and other extras. Thank you for you quick response on this, and I'm sure I will come home safe I have too much rock crawling left to do in my life.

Hi Brian,

Think about the rocks you want to crawl over. Just how big are they.
Will that lift and big meats do the trick? If you can keep the Jeep lower to the ground you're better off. Lifting introduces more problems than you can shake a stick at. A lift can easily cost $3500 by the time you're done buying the lift, the tires, re-gearing, etc.. And that's not even going to be the cost of working out the bugs.

Consider another opinion (Mine's as good as anyone else's). Why not keep the Jeep pretty much stock. Then just clock the transfer case up and install a flat skid plate. That gains you 2" on the cheap. It would be a perfect time if you're going to work on/replace the transmission. Then trim the fenders and tub for more articulation. Then money can be spent buying a full cage, and a good winch (if you don't have one) and some heavy duty skid plate protection. Once that's done you can still go out and hammer the Jeep and see if it's going to work for you. If it doesn't you're not out anything, but a little time. Clocking the transfer case will be a help no matter what you decide, it
always gives more ground clearance. Then, if you want to lift it, lift away. It may give you a little budget breathing room and time to find out if you like that type of wheeling.

LEVE

LEVE,

That is something to consider for me I hadn't thought about that.
Luckily for me I have a buddy with a shop and all the tools I could need to do pretty much anything from plasma cutting to a tube bender for a cage. I know you are not a fan of lifts and as mine is a daily driver it would be wiser for me to keep it lower. With the lift I had planned on spending about $5000 on it when I got back to the states. I guess with a little research I can get what I want out of it for now for a lot less, I'm sure it will end up lifted eventually after all is said and done I want to have a jeep that will go over pretty much anything that gets in my way as of right now it will go over a lot of things that I wouldn't even think possible with my little jeep and I surprise a lot of people out on the trail at how well a stock jeep will perform given a little patience and the right line of course. Thank you again for you input and for you support of those of us over here making this world a better place even if people can't see that.

Hi Brian,

Glad to help, keep you head and cedar end down... shoot first and ask questions later... Send out any questions you may have while you're wiling away the time in the sandbox. You may not like the answers you get... but you'll get answers. Hey, one other suggestion for axles... UniMog or Volvo Portal axles. Those things are just too cool for words. I'd suggest 2 1/2 ton Rockwells.. but they're mighty heavy.

LEVE

LEVE,

As of right now axles are the least of my concern while the Dana 35 is weak it can handle pretty much anything I throw at it with the 2.5L and the dana 30 of front I don't ever expect to have a lot of problems with as long as I don't try to go huge with the tires the biggest I would ever want is 33" and my axles should be fine with that. Some day maybe I'll build a purpose built crawler in which case I would love to have the 2 1/2 ton rockwells yes they are heavy but that's great for the center of gravity. As for the others I've never even heard of them most of the guys I wheel with are all about Dana 44's and automatic transmissions which is fine for them as for me I like to drive my vehicles I hate automatics. Well if I run across anything in my researching to better my jeep when I get back that I have questions about I'll drop you a line. Thanks again.

Hi Brian,

Sorry to be a PITA, but you've got a 2.5L engine and plan on using it on the highway. That means regearing the axles. If you get bigger tires, you might as well get stronger axles at the same time. If you're patient, you can find 'em used for almost the price of regearing. Yep, it's going to be an experience.

LEVE

LEVE

I really am looking forward to the experience. I know I am going to need at least 4.56 gears to compensate I know a few people that are running 36" tires and don't have a problem with the dana 30 up front so that one is not a problem. Of course the dana 35 in the rear is a problem because it isn't worth the money to upgrade it. I know I can find an axle either a dana 44 or better on the cheap with my friends hook ups that the has because of the way his shop works if I'm lucky he will just have one laying around in the back yard somewhere and he has plenty of spare parts to go around. I will probably be putting air lockers in the front and back because we have a design for onboard air that costs about $120 dollars as a do it yourself job with an old AC pump. Well I am off to go put a giant $20000 snap on tool box together fun times here in the sandbox. Thanks for the advice.

LEVE NOTE: Brian is doing the right thing, research BEFORE he spends his money. If you don't do the research I can guarantee you won't like what you will get.

Hi,

I am hoping that you can help me with a problem with my 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo. I has always started just fine until my wife left the interior lights on all day and night. The battery went totally dead. We jumped it and the batter is now fully charged with plenty of power. But suddenly it won't start. It cranks no problem, but it just doesn't catch and start up. It doesn't make any sense at all. Why would it just quit starting because the battery went dead and what can I do to fix this?

Hi Jim,

We've got to drop back and figure out if the problem is in the Jeep, or in Jumping the Jeep. If it cranks and does not fire up, then you've got to figure out what's missing, fuel, air, timing, spark.

Try turning the ignition to RUN and listen to hear if the fuel pump runs for about 2 seconds and shuts off. The ECU will cause this to happen. Once you turn the ignition key to START the ECU wants to see pulses from the TopDeadCenter (aka: CPS) sensor. If it sees the pulses then it turns on the fuel pump, and the ignition system. If the pulses aren't seen, then the ECU disables these circuits by not turning on the AutoShutDown relay. I'd start there to see if that relay is being enabled.

Let me know.

LEVE

Thanks for the quick response and the advice. It turned out to be a little simpler that I expected. Since I didn't want to keep using jumper cables to power the Jeep and do the testing, I pick up a new battery and installed that so I would have power to check for spark and fuel. Wouldn't you know it, as soon as I connected the battery the Jeep started right up. I am going to take it in and check on the alternator just to make sure I don't have a bigger problem, but at least now I know that it still runs. Thanks again!

Jim

Hi Jim,

So, you're telling me the battery really didn't charge? It could have also been a shallow charge. Are you up to checking the alternator yourself on the cheap?

LEVE

If there is an easy way for me to check it then I will, but I don't have any special equipment in my garage. I was going to take it to a mechanic now that it is running.

Hi Jim,

If you've got a Harbor Freight, or Northern Tools type store near you ... go on down and buy a cheap digital multi meter (I bought one for $2 last week at Harbor Freight). Then set it to the 20 volts setting and see what the alternator is charging at by placing the multi meter leads across the battery. It should be at about 13.5 to 14.7 DC volts. Another way is to just go to your local autoparts store and ask to borrow their load tester. It should also so the voltage from the alternator.

This should be just fine to test the alternator. Sometimes a battery will have a "Shallow Charge." The lights are bright, the radio works, etc., but the engine won't start. The batter will take a charge, and still die. My guess is that's what happened. The new battery should take care of the problem.

LEVE

KUDOS to you!!!

Been reading your articles, and must say I'm quite impressed with your thoroughness and patience. As a mechanic, i get frustrated with people that will ask me 27 questions that are covered in a basic service manual.

Keep up the GREAT work!

Tim
Syracuse, NY

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the kind words. Where do you work? I find I've only got about a 35% chance of getting the problem correct. It all depends on what the reader tells me. I've been down the garden path more'n once!

I take my hat off to you, you're dealing with the public in a very tight place, between the shop and the customer. You can't give away the shop, and you've got to meet the customers needs when they're usually angry, frustrated, and ill prepared to receive what you tell 'em.

LEVE

Hi, Leve,

I work at "Bee Line Wheel Alignment" in Auburn, NY. We specialize in front ends, suspensions, alignments, handling issues, etc. We are an old school shop (been Bee Line since 1932), and shy away from many of the newest equipment "innovations".

Our experience has taught us that a dedicated, caring, learning-oriented approach is much more efficient and cost-effective for the customers (our standard alignment fees are $45.00 for cars, $50.00 for trucks, $0.00 if the alignment is fine).

What i liked about your responses is the way you don't give up, try to keep it cheap for the writer, consider outsourcing problems that may exceed your abilities, and are very reasonable. It's getting harder to find techs (people) like that anymore!

We have found a loyal following (customers actually come from hundreds of miles away!??) because we try to always be onest, and fix our screw-ups with no questions asked. We also refuse to install "cheap" parts, making MOOG love us. It's great to get new customer in and tell them "there's no charge for the parts-someone put in MOOG, so we warranteed them". People have gotten so accustomed to being screwed, it's really quite sad.

Thanks again for your invaluable service and dedication- it separates you from the herd (a good thing, as the herd seems lost).

Peace,

Tim

LEVE Note: This month I'll on a high note from an Honest Shop, and an employee who'll give us little guys a break. I've asked Tim to whip up an article about Do It Yourself Wheel Alignment for ORC that would cover both on and off-road vehicles. So, look for it soon! I've been trying to figure this stuff out for two decades. Jim may just enlighten us all!